Pre-tribulation rapture of the church, part 2; why does Michael show up?

Please read disclaimer for Part 1 below.

I intend this study to be exhaustive. Too many folks ignore clear verses to concentrate on a handfull of obscure ones.

That there is a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week is painfully obvious to any Bible-believer. I will not go into interpretive details, for as previously mentioned, I assume a minimal degree of Bible-knowledge on the part of the reader. If you're amillennialist or post-millennialist, you should get back to believing the words of the Bible instead of men.

Gabriel is clear

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon
thy people and upon thy holy city,

He tells Daniel the seventy weeks concern his (Daniel's) people, i.e. the Jews; and his city, i.e. Jerusalem.

Fact: The seventy weeks then, including the 70th week, are not determined upon the Church of God, which is a separate entity.

Post-tribs brush off this fact.

While we agree that the focus of the prophecy is the Jewish people and Jerusalem, (emphasis mine) we do not agree that it in any way indicates God would stop dealing with Israel during the gap.

(emphasis mine) between the 69th and 70th weeks, or a change of program has occurred. The
evidence that God continues to deal with Israel throughout the present age (within the gap) is actually found in this very passage. There are two prophesied events in verse 26 that occurred after the 69th week, within the gap.

1. The crucifixion of Christ 5
days after the end of the 69th week

2. The destruction of Jerusalem 37 years after
the end of the 69th week

Pasted from <http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/pd_17.html>

It is hard to imagine a more self-effacing argument than that. Note that it doesn't strike them as odd that God's last eventful dealing (and what a dealing) with Israel was over 1900 years ago. Or that any event which might be pointed to is one of judgment. Of course God still has en eye on the nation of Israel, and in some sense, has been "dealing" with the Jews, yet that in no way equivalent to his use of his body on earth which is the New Testament church of God. Where He is dealing with the Jew today, like returning him to Palestine, He is setting up the scene for the tribulation judgment. (folks who teach that the New Testament church IS the nation of Israel, are blind leaders of the blind and we will not waste time with them in this study.)

Our post-trib. brethren acknowledge a focus but so far as I've read at least, do not practically define it.

They acknowledge the gap but fail to explain it. Why did God stop his clock after the 69th week only to restart it again at the beginning of the 70th if nothing in His dealings with Israel has changed? The gap, like "the focus", is a dummy variable in their reading.

They see God's continued unchanged dealing with Israel in

a) Crucifying their
King

b) Destroying the city
of the Great King

c) Provoking them to jealousy

Seriously, it is hard to imagine a more self-effacing argument
than that.

"Paul speaks of God's dealing with Israel in this age,
provoking the nation to jealousy through the Gospel going to the Gentiles (Rom.
11:11). How then can it be said that God is not dealing with Israel during this
gap?"(emphasis mine)

Pasted from <http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/pd_17.html>

"You see, you heretical pre-tribs, how can you say that!"

...

You see people believe that the Church was a mystery hid in God, but simultaneously refuse to rightly divide the word of truth in order to identify the passages doctrinally targeted at the church thereby forgoing the extra light a New Testament believer has to interpret the scriptures. They are not one step ahead of the Old Testament prophets when it comes to the Church of God in prophecy.

Look at this again

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

In the 66 books of the Bible, there is only 1 angel
called an "archangel" and that's Michael

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,

Paul is telling you that along with the Lord Jesus Christ coming down to rapture you, there will be Michael showing up. Now why do you think that is? Can any post-trib answer that one?

Michael the archangel has another title

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (matching 9:24): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people(matching 9:24) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Now let me ask you another question. You, my post-trib. brother, believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 refers to a rapture. In that same verse appears the archangel, which ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, can only be Michael. Now since you believe the church is raptured at the end of the tribulation, that for you means that Michael shows up at the end of the tribulation, clearly contradicting Daniel 12:1 above, for the time of his standing up preceds/ushers the time of trouble. Now how do you reconcile that? Unless of course that's the first time you gave attention to "the voice of the archangel" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Consider this. When you take Daniel 12:1, and run through the verses looking for some future manifestation of Michael, you land on the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. You can call that coincidence, or evidence. Maybe you wouldn’t call it proof, but you can call it evidence.

It's clear English. Michael shows up because he stands for "thy people" the Jews like in Daniel 9:24. God's "focus" as they call it, becomes the Jewish nation once again. Please notice that Michael shows up for the Jews in chapter 12! 12 is Israel's number in the Bible.

Ok, Then a "time of trouble"; that's "Jacob's trouble", if you please

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

"saved" here matching the "delivered" of Daniel 12:1. You, my dear saved brother in Lord Jesus Christ and member of His body which is the church, are NOT Jacob, neither are you a Hebrew in the epistle which is doctrinally addressed to the Hebrews, neither are you of the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad of James 1:1 to whom that epistle is doctrinally addressed.
(Study that a little and it will solve a few thorny issues without any
knowledge of greek and hebrew.) Jacob is the Jew, not you. It is the time of his trouble, not yours. It is his judgment,not yours. Your judgment is the Judgment Seat of Christ, not the tribulation. The church (actually a percentage thereof if
the post-tribs are correct) cannot go through 2 judgments, and the tribulation is
a judgment.

The church's judgment takes place in heaven because it is a heavenly entity. Israel's judgment takes place on earth because it is an earthly entity.

Look again at Daniel 12:1

such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

That matches

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 is about the tribulation and Michael as an archangel is connected
with it.

again

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael
and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Again tribulation, again chapter 12, again Israel (see v.1)

but you can write off that last part again as mere coincidence because you've been taught better than to believe the Bible is inspired right down to its division by bespectacled men in stuffed shirts.

Can you see better now, why "the archangel" shows up at the rapture?

Pre-tribulation rapture of the church, Part 1; what last trumpet?

The purpose of this study is to prove (yes, prove) the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, which rapture is different than at least 2 other raptures found in the Bible. I believe the words of the King James Bible to be the divinely preserved wordS of the living God. I acknowledge no other reading. You can critique this post using the King James Bible's words as much as you like, but please dump your nicolaitan use of greek and hebrew at the doorstep. I have no need of it even where it helps the position I defend.

Througout the study I draw very heavily on the writings of men of God who have humbled themselves before the words of God, foremost of which, Peter Sturges Ruckman (verbatim in a number of cases), Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (verbatim in certain cases), Clarence Larkin and James Modlish (verbatim in some cases).

This study presumes a significant minimal amount of Bible-knowledge and is not aimed at new-born believers. Let it be known that I am independent baptist, pre-millennial, dispensationalist.

I strongly recommend printing this out, just for practicality's sake. Please consider seriously as I've invested much in this study. There is much more coming. This part only deals with the so-called "last trumpet".

There are many born-again Christians who believe the church will go through the tribulation and be raptured out of it at some point.

One of the points I am making is that there are indeed verses dealing with a mid/post tribulation rapture. But given that those mid/post tribs can only identify ONE rapture in the entire 66 books of the Bible, they automatically assume that that rapture is the church's.
This church-centric approach to all scripture is the cause also of a
misunderstanding of salvation doctrine in various dispensations. More on that later when we tackle the tribulation.

Let's look at the two greatest passages on the rapture of the church in the New Testament.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall
not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word
of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump
of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In talking about the rapture of the church, Paul calls it a mystery (v.51). A mystery is something that has not been revealed before. Now if you believe that Matthew 24:40-41 deals with the rapture OF THE CHURCH,then your first obstacle is why the Holy Spirit calls the rapture OF THE CHURCH a "mystery" in 1 Corinthians 15. You can't explain that one if you only see 1 rapture. You'll have to duck and swerve and play around with the word "mystery" and rush to some mythological Septuagint or something.

The rapture OF THE CHURCH TAKES PLACE

v.52
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,

read carefully:

"at the last TRUMP". NOT "at the last TRUMPET"

Why is that important? Well many folks help out the Holy Spirit by adding an "et" to "trump" and search the Bible for "the last trumpET", landing in

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and
there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

a) The trumpet in Revelation 11 raptures nobody! It is blown at the END of the tribulation and it ushers the millennium.

In fact, a rapture has taken place before it in v.12

b) There is no angel in 1 Corinthians 15:52.
There's an ARCHangel involved in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, not an angel

c) That trump is called "the trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16; it is an angel's trumpet in Revelation 11:1

d) Moreover it is "THE trump", not one trumpet out of seven.

This is not facetious. If you check Zechariah 9:14 there's a trumpet there that God Himself blows.

By going to the Bible to interpret the Bible we learn that the trump is a certain NOISE. The word "trump" bears out that definition in the world

"trump: a sound of, or as if of, trumpeting"

-Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary

So a trumpet can, musically, emit more than one trump, more than one note, or sound. So far Paul is saying that at the last noise emitted by a certain trumpet, the rapture of the dead and living in Christ will occur.

We can know from the Bible that as far as heaven is concerned, a trump can span an extended amount of earth time. See

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(and again, the VOICE is sounding)

Moving on:

1 Corinthians 15:52

"at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound" The Holy Spirit gave us more details in

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God:

Here He has given you three noises to look out for.Notice that Paul is careful to say "trump" again, not "trumpet" within a verse dealing with NOISES. How's that for a fit?

This trump, scripture with scripture, is the voice of God speaking.

Now some of you are going to choke on this, but the rapture of the tribulation saints is present in the Old Testament. It is no mystery. That's what Jesus is refering to in Matthew 24.
It's the rapture of the CHURCH that was a mystery. Why? Because the church
itself was a mystery (Ephesians 3:1-6, 5:32) Makes sense, don't it?

First I will show you that it is the voice of God's mouth, not an actual trumpet, that effects the rapture, then I will show you that that voice sounds like the trump of a trumpet.

One should study Psalm 29.
The voice of God (7 times, like the 7 thunders of Revelation, another
coincidental match) is never without its effect on earth.

Now there is a commandment in the Bible to

Job 37:2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.

Why? Because

Job 37:4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.

After "the sound",which is associated with "the voice",

"he will not stay them when his voice is heard."
Now, you may not have studied or even heard how that the book of Job is a picture of Israel during the tribulation, but you can answer the following question nonetheless

"he will not stay them" WHERE, when his voice is heard?

Well? Could it possibly, perhaps, be that God won't stay some people on EARTH when his voice is heard? Is that not the kind of operation Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, though in reference to the church? Flip to John 10 for a moment.

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Again the voice, again the rapture. He we go again.

"leadeth them out" of WHERE, when they hear his voice?

It should be easier this time around. Could it again be out from EARTH and into heaven?

Ok, let's identify that trumpet now. Notice how the
trumpet is said to have a voice in

Exodus 19:16 ...that there were thunders
and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;

Exodus 19:19
And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and
waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Notice how the voice of the trumpet is intimitely associated with God's very voice speaking ("answered").

Exodus 19:20 And the LORD came down upon mount
Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went UP.

Observe: trumpet sound, God's call, Moses goes UP!

Skeptical? Ask John.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a
door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard

Now obey the commandment and hear the noise of his
voice attentively (Job 37:2) Well brother John, what did that voice sound like?

Rev.4:1 was AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET TALKING with me; which SAID,

There you have it. The Bible defining its own terms. Actually, John had told you that in the first chapter

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

How much clearer can it get?

At rapture then, the noise of God's voice is a shout which sounds (Job 37:2) like a trumpet and talks (Revelation 4:1) and at the last sound (1 Corinthians 15:52): wham! born-again believers are out'a here!

It ain't no last trumpet of an angel in Revelation. You have to believe the WORDS of God, not just the word, and search them to see how the Bible defines them. The Bible is its own dictionary. get that.

Given Job 37:4 and John 10:3, what do you suppose God says?

Rev.4:1 COME UP HITHER

Up from where? Earth

Where to? Heaven

Well yeah, he just told you "behold, a door was opened in heaven"

If you go back to John you'll notice there's a door there too.

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth;
and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

There's a door also being opened in John. That's the door that John ends up seeing in Revelation 4:1
All those elements fitting perfectly is no coincidence.

Lastly, you will be called by name at the rapture. Something like "(name of person) come up hither!"

but the unsaved will only hear thunder (Job 37:3-4)

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

So far I have said nothing concerning John representing the church which I know some dispute. All I've dealt with are operational elements of the rapture. That John represents the church will be the subject of an upcoming post.